Larry Grenadier

Larry Grenadier was an interview subject for The New York City Jazz Record right around the time he released his solo bass album, The Gleaners (ECM, 2019). Most of the time when I do interviews for the paper, I’m acquainted with the subject, I know them from the scene, maybe we’ve worked together or they worked with my parents. I didn’t know Larry and I hadn’t heard his album. I don’t recall how I ended up taking on this article. This was our first time speaking and it was really enjoyable. He was really easy to talk with, he was generous with his time, and spoke really well about some aspects of developing as a musician that are not necessarily well defined and how musical development in jazz has changed over time, especially with the proliferation of jazz curriculums at colleges over the decades. 

Someone sent me the album, The Gleaners, before we spoke on the phone, so I had the chance to listen to it before interviewing him. I find it a pretty uniquely beautiful and inspiring album. 

Thank goodness for the variety of artists and the breadth of true expression in this world. 

You can read the published version of our interview here. 

Below is a much more complete transcript of that conversation, which ends up conveying something a little different from the article. As with all of these articles, different readers will glean their own discoveries.  

You can learn much more about Larry Grenadier at his website: https://larrygrenadier.com/ 

On the phone: February 3, 2019 

Anders Griffen:  Have you practiced today, and do you have a routine? 

Larry Grenadier:  (Laughs)  I don’t usually get that question, actually. (Laughs). Yes, I have. I mean I usually try to play a bit in the morning at some point, and throughout the day but, for me, practicing is, it's very fluid. I don't have a routine. I mean, I had a routine when I was 15. (Laughs) Now it's more like, my practicing moves through different areas based on gigs that I'm doing, things that I've just been thinking about, and I tend to work on something for, maybe, a few weeks, and then I move on to something else, for the most part. And for me, most practicing is playing through classical music, which I do not for performance, but for just increasing my technique. So I use it for that. So I'm not really trying to master it to play it live. I'm really just trying to find different music that pushes my technique. So that's typically what I'm working on outside of specific things that I need to work on for a gig or for a recording. 

AG: That makes me think of a web of questions, but let's go back to the beginning, I guess, and as I understand it, after starting trumpet around age 10? 

LG: Mm-hmm.  

AG: …you switched to the bass at 12? 

LG: Well, I started on electric bass first, so, whatever that is, fifth grade? Something like that. 11 or 12. And then, you know, playing just pop music. And then, through my brother and my father, I was hearing jazz music and I was hearing the double bass and so, I remember just liking the sound of it, liking those records, without really before having any sort of understanding of them. But I borrowed an upright bass from school and just started playing that when I was probably in seventh grade. And started taking lessons on that with a — he was a jazz bass player, but he didn't teach me jazz, he just kind of taught me the classical tradition of the bass. But that's how I got into it. 

AG: So you started on your own and then found a teacher. 

LG: Yeah, I mean, actually, I found a teacher right away when I when I took up the electric bass. My Dad thought I should take up electric bass. My one brother played guitar and my other brother, Phil, plays trumpet, so it just kind of seemed like — that could have been drums or piano too, I guess — but it just seemed like something [where] we could all play together. And so, when he did give me the bass, I did take lessons right away. I always took lessons with people, you know, to learn the instrument and then the thing for me that was really valuable was that the second I started taking lessons playing electric bass, I also started playing in a band. So right away, the goal was always performance oriented, towards learning tunes to play on a gig and playing with my friends, my brothers. So, you know, from basically 11 years old to 12 years old, it was always performance-centric, which I think was really helpful, for any musician, but particularly for a bass player, you know? Just finding out what's necessary, what people are looking for from the bass in the band. How a band works. All that stuff. So from then on, it was always about that, just playing with other people and making music with other people, figuring that whole dynamic out. So I was lucky, but I think it's somewhat common for bass players who start out and they basically start playing in a band right away because there's always a need for a bass player. So we're lucky that we find that, that it's not just, you know, practicing in a room. It's all about getting together to play music with people. I've been really fortunate my whole life so far, of having those experiences of having everything geared towards playing in a band. 

AG: Just one more thought on the teachers: did you have many teachers in the beginning? Or did you spend a long time with a teacher? Was there anybody that had a lasting influence that you would mention? 

LG: I mean, they kind of all did, and, looking back, they were all good. I didn't stay with anybody too long, actually, I kind of moved through it. But I started with, you know, the local guy at the music store, and then that took me to one of the better electric bass players who played jazz. And then when I started taking upright, I went to just the local jazz bass players in San Francisco, which really, they just taught me, like I said, the kind of classical technique that helped me learn where the notes were, just introducing me to getting around the instrument physically. And then I started, I guess it was later in high school, beginning of college, I started taking lessons with some of the bass players in the San Francisco Symphony, which was very helpful for continuing that process of getting getting comfortable with the physicality of the bass. Now that I teach, that's kind of what I teach too, because I feel like on the bass, the issue is the physical hurdles that we have to deal with, just getting comfortable with the instrument, the size of it, all the things that make playing the bass hard. I find that, if people focus in on that pretty early, they don't have to think about it later. Then they can just kind of focus in on the music and not be… you know, have that stuff get in the way of the flow. 

AG: Right. Are you teaching privately or at a school or both? 

LG: Right now I just teach at a school in Switzerland. Basel, Switzerland. It's called the Jazzcampus in Basel, and it's a jazz school. So I do that, and since I've been doing that, I kind of stopped teaching anywhere else. So I really don't teach anywhere outside of there. I go there about 35 days a school year, spread out. And it's a great. It's a small school. I think they have 70 students, maybe 80 students. But they have great teachers. I’m there, and Jeff Ballard, Mark Turner, Lionel Loueke, Guillermo Klein. It's really a nice scene there. So I kind of just focus on that because I don't want to do too much teaching. That's kind of plenty. I balance that with just playing. 

AG: So you were able to start working while still a teenager. What was the nature of that work? And like, what kind of gigs were they in? Were you getting paid? 

LG: (Laughs) Yeah, I mean, luckily I've never had another job, actually. So yeah, I was in a pop rock band when I was, you know, I just started, whatever that was, fifth grade, sixth grade, seventh grade. And we would do typical, stupid gigs, you know, high school dances, roller skating rinks and state fairs, all that stuff. But once I started playing jazz, I was playing with my brothers and some of the other kids in school that were into jazz. And then, pretty soon, I can’t remember how I met him, but there was a piano player who's still out there playing a lot now, named Larry Vuckovich. He really helped me because he, he… I mean, I barely could play, really. I knew very few tunes, but he saw something in my abilities. I would go over there and we’d play and we started doing gigs. I was about 15 or 16, I guess. So I started playing gigs around San Francisco with him. He would recommend me for different gigs. You know, so like 16, he recommended me for a gig with Charles McPherson. So I just kind of started meeting all the great musicians who lived there, which was kind of an amazing time. There were great drummers. Everybody, I mean… So I played with people visiting who would come through town as soloists and need a rhythm section, so I started doing that in, probably later in high school and then in college. Playing with people coming through town, like Joe Henderson I was playing with while I was there. Stan Getz, Bobby Hutcherson was out there. So, looking back, it was an amazing way to learn how to play jazz. I couldn't have done that anywhere, I couldn't have done that if I grew up in New York. I wouldn't have had those same opportunities. So it was just kind of the right moment, the right timing to experience that, for a player who wasn't really ready but (laughs) was lucky enough to be put in a situation to learn how to play really quickly.

AG: Was Bobby Hutcherson a local then?

LG: Yeah, Bobby, Joe, Stan. Tony Williams was out there. Kind of amazing, you know? For kind of a pretty small scene by then, like, the Keystone Korner had just closed, but there were some venues. It wasn't like it was in the 50s and 60s. But there was still a lot of people living out that way. There were people that came up from LA to play, but people were still coming through town from New York without a band back then, which you don't really see so much now. So people would come in for a week and they’d hire the local rhythm section. So I got a lot of experience that way, learned tunes that way, but also continued to figure out this idea of what the bass, how it functions in the music and what people expected from the bass in jazz. 

AG: Right. Was Donald Bailey out there? 

LG: That's the man! Yeah, absolutely. He moved when I was 16, because this gig I did with Charles McPherson, he was on it, and he had just moved to San Francisco from Japan. He had been living in Japan for a few years. He and George Cables were on that gig. So that was the first time I played with him. And then I kind of continued to play with him a lot over the next… until I moved from San Francisco, which was 1990. Donald Bailey was a huge influence on me, and also many of my, like, Jeff Ballard, Kenny Wolleson, and the younger drummers. There was amazing amount of great drummers in San Francisco. He was probably the most unique, you know, but there was Eddie Moore, Eddie Marshall, there was quite a few. But Donald really kind of blew my mind because I'd never heard anybody play like that before. And I remember that first week at the Keystone like I had no idea what was going on because it seemed like there were four different beats going on on the drum set. Each limb was doing something different. It was really kind of busy, but it was super groovy. So I just kind of had to settle into it. But then after playing with him over time, I got to feel more comfortable with it. But he he taught me a lot. I mean, all those guys taught me a lot without saying too much. It's just… they just showed me by the playing of it. 

AG: Is that what was kind of unique about Donald Bailey, his independent coordination or polyrhythms? You don't always hear as much about him, so that's part of the reason I asked. 

LG: That's great. Yeah. ‘Cause I always try to talk about him because he is, like, not talked about enough. But if you talk to Billy Hart or Jack DeJohnette, any of these guys, they’ll tell you about Donald. He was a really big influence on a lot of people, but a little bit under the radar, I'd say, yeah, there was this very unique – he was just a unique guy, so his playing was just part of that, you know? He dressed differently. He just kind of went about his life in a very unique way. And he did have a lot going on when he would play, but most of all it was just super funky, you know? And coming from the organ stuff, that was kind of always, no matter what he did, it always had that, you know? It could be some really loose swing, but it was super funky. And we played a lot of different situations, from the thing with Charles, but also with Stan Getz. I remember playing with him and everybody loved him. He was just, I mean, I think some people might have had a hard time, like he, he didn't always make it easy to play because of this kind of – not a wall of sound, but it was like a wall of rhythm coming at you. And I think for some musicians that might have been, maybe not what they were hearing, maybe. So maybe it was a bit specific, how he played but, man…  I think about him a lot, because nobody really topped what he did. I think he influenced some people, but I mean – Joey Baron will talk about him too. I know that was a big influence on Joey. But when I, after playing with Jack DeJohnette, it kind of connected me also with Donald because there's something similar about the way they play. There is this kind of barrage of information coming at you, but at the core of it is a really swinging strong beat, which makes it all work. 

AG: That's great. Thank you for that. I think on any instrument, there's probably, you know, there's the big names that kind of rise to the top and influence so many people, and then it's really just so intriguing and inspirational when you have someone like this who's so creative and powerful in their own right, that kind of…  yeah, it has an effect on how you look at the whole thing. 

LG: Exactly. It makes you rethink what your ideas are, which is always super healthy. You know, you don't want to get into this, “well, jazz is this,” or, “swing is this.” This is something that comes up for me teaching because when you're in an academic environment, students or whoever expects it to be kind of a list of “well, you do this and this, and you do this and then you swing, then you're cool.” But obviously not, you know, and it’s the individuality of players that push the music. If you go back, go through these players. It's these people who stick out who came to it, brought their own idea of what it means to them, and it’s just, it's so powerful that sticks, and then it affects the next generation of players. I know like for Jeff [Ballard] and for Kenny Wolleson, you know, two drummers who, we grew up at the same moment in San Francisco, that Donald was a huge, huge influence on them. 

AG: You mentioned what a special time it was and that experience to get to play with all these people and an opportunity that you might not have had anywhere else. That kind of experience, that's an education that can't be replicated in a school. 

LG: Right. 

AG: And what am I trying to get at?... Something about the significance of the live environment and learning through experience and just with the people who that's what they're doing. 

LG: Exactly. Yeah, I mean, this was the thing that came up when I graduated high school: do I go to music school or not? And, I mean, it was slightly different. This is 1984. So it was a little different then. It wasn't necessarily assumed that you go to a jazz school at that point, even though some of my friends did. But nowadays, if you want to be a jazz musician, everybody assumes that, yeah, you go to school to study jazz. But I was playing so much at that point that I was really, it was really clear that this was how I was learning how to play and I didn't really want to give that up at that point. I was 18, I had a lot of choices amongst the people that I was already playing with to figure it all out to grow and experience it. So, I decided to stay in the area but go to college, not a music school. And I think, you know, it ended up being fine, it would have been a different scene if I had chosen to go to New York. But those four years that I was in college, I continued to play with a lot of great musicians. So, I can't imagine that I would have…  I couldn't have gotten that same material academically, in an academic environment. There’s no way. And if I just moved to New York, I wouldn't have had those experiences, either, because those guys would have called, you know, Ron Carter or whoever, you know, because it was just a different scene. So, I'm happy that that was the choice I made, and it's affected the way I teach. Now when I have to think about what students have available to them and what I can give to them, it's just unique because of my experiences and the way I look at music, and I try to give them that and to kind of always be playing with them so they understand it through the music and not always do the language, you know, verbally. And that was the thing that I had to kind of come to terms with pretty quick when I was young was that nobody was really telling me too much about how to play. I mean, every once in a while, but typically, it was completely through the music. Or it was through some sort of coded information that I had to kind of decipher over time, where I finally realized what they were talking about. So I think that made me kind of go deeper instead of just being told what to do by a teacher. It was more of this hands-on thing [that] made the information go deeper. So I'm thankful that that's how it came out for me. That was my process. 

AG: Yeah, I think that's just what I was looking for. But also, like you mentioned, today people go to jazz schools. I guess there's so many more programs than there used to be… 

LG: Yeah. 

AG: …and I guess I'm struggling with the words because I'm trying not to be too explicit in saying that, you know, there's something integral missing from these school programs, but maybe there is. Maybe a better way to say it is what students in jazz school should seek out besides their curriculum. 

LG: Right. 

AG: I mean, they have to go out and experience the music and from those who came before.  

LG: Of course, I mean, it's a different time, you know, so most, most young musicians aren't going to be lucky enough to have that experience that I had. So they're not able to play with people who are so good that it kind of hits you over the head with what you have to get together. So I think, you know, if you want to play jazz, it's kind of one of the only options you can do unless you're lucky enough to be taken, somebody takes you under their wing to join a band when you're really young and you get that that experience. So, I think it's still, right now, this is what we have to deal with. I mean, the only weird thing for me is the price you have to pay to go to some of these schools. I think is just so outrageous considering what lies ahead economically. I mean, it's one thing to spend $60,000 if you’re gonna, you know, get your MBA or go into law school or pre-med. I mean, to spend that much money to learn how to play jazz is bizarre to me. That's kind of the cool thing in Europe is that it’s basically free. So that's really different. I mean, I just can't imagine kids coming out of a jazz school owing hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's unbelievable. So that's kind of my only beef with it, because I think there are amazing teachers at these schools and there's a lot for them to learn, and there's also a great way to meet your contemporaries, you know, people you might be playing with in five or ten years. So, there are all these great things except for the price of admission. I think it’s really unbelievable. I guess you could say that about college in general, but for jazz, it’s just ridiculous. 

AG: I've only heard a few faculty – I guess I don't think of them as faculty, but I didn't go to jazz school, I learned from playing with my peers and my elders, but whenever there was a program around where I was going to school or where I was working, I would check [those jazz programs] out. And the only people that I know really spoke explicitly to what you're talking about, were usually the more established musicians. Like Kenny Burrell. I went to library school at UCLA. 

LG: Oh, yeah. Right. 

AG: And I got to play in his combo and he talked to his students about that, like, “what do you what do you guys think you're going to be doing when you get out of here?” And it was really, it was kind of harsh for some people, especially because he's such a soft spoken sweetheart the whole time until one day, you know, “what do you think you're going to be doing when this is done?” Stanley Cowell was another one. 

LG: Oh, wow. He’s amazing. 

AG: Oh, yeah. I worked at Rutgers and he was there. 

LG: He’s another under-recognized cat, I think. Right? 

AG: Oh, yeah, that could be. Yeah, I guess that's true. He’s one of my heroes. I forget that not everybody knows who he is. 

LG: It’s true. Yeah. 

AG: Just everything as a composer as a performer… I saw him play, he did this solo where the left and right hand were playing the same thing like two octaves apart, and it was like Art Tatum or something. It was out of this world. I was just floored. 

LG: Yeah, he's like, I kind of put him in there like with Roland Hanna or Jackie Byard, these piano players who can kind of do anything, who can play any style, who are great composers, just complete master musicians. And all those guys are kind of under-recognized too. But as a composer too, Stanley’s unbelievable. It's funny you mention it because I was just listening to some of those records from the 70s, which I didn't really know of his. They’re kind of fusion-y, I guess, and they're kind of blending different elements of pop music, but so great. Great writing, always playing great. 

Back to your thing. Right. Like you're saying, I think it's true, what students really need to hear from teachers is really practical experience that they've had out doing what they're trying to get together, what the students are trying to get together. And the teachers who have been out there touring and playing with a wide variety of people can bring that to the students, that brings them a really unique personal view because, what I what I typically find with bass players is they need, there’s technical issues that everybody needs to address at some point, you know, and a lot of lot of people can give that information, but then there's really the next step of what music means and what is necessary to get called to do a gig and to keep the gig. You know, there’s the really practical things that these guys can teach, and then there’s kind of magical bits of information that they might glean from these guys who've been doing it for a long time. 

AG: There's two places I want to go with this. So I'll pick this one first, because a moment before you said something about… oh, learning through the music rather than the words, so to speak. 

LG: Mm-hmm. 

AG: I read somewhere where you were talking about Paul Motian. I have a quote written down here somewhere… You know, I kind of prepared for this conversation, like, almost a couple of weeks ago, and then I didn't look at it for a little bit and now I'm kind of re-acclimating but… 

LG: Yeah, no problem. 

AG: Yeah, saying that he didn't say too much about the music, but it would be discussed through the music itself, and that he was one of the guys of, quote, unquote, “that generation” and that was unique in that era of musician. So, I guess I wanted to hear a little bit more about what you think is that generation and how things have changed. 

LG: Well, I mean those guys were all closer to the source, you know? They're closer to the beginning of the music than we are, and the music obviously started out, not in school. (Laughs) It got taught like any sort of folk or tribal music, you know? It's gonna kind of get passed on from master to student. I think that they're just kind of that continuation, that’s my experience of playing with that generation. For them almost completely is they don't… I don't know if they don't want to talk about it. I mean, if you ask them a specific question, they might, they might give you a specific answer. But they may not too, you know? I think that they're just closer to this idea that that's how you pass along the information and that whole thing has switched in the last… say 40 years, where it's become institutionalized, you know, as far as the academic side, where you you go to class to learn how to play it. My overall feeling about that is, there are many things that you can learn in a classroom that will help you to become a better jazz musician, but it's not going to give you everything, obviously, that you need, and playing with these older generations of musicians, I think because it's not verbalized, you have to do bit more of the work yourself. You have to question things and just dig a little deeper, and to get to kind of the more mysterious parts of music. Obviously, there are things about music and are very apparent and you can you can talk about them and break them down and say, “Well, you do this when this happens, you do this when another thing happens,” but obviously, there's this whole other side of music that you can't really verbalize. And if you try to you kind of destroy it. I mean, the kind of, you know, basic feel, swing, you know, how can you how can you verbalize that? So, that, for example, that you can only get to through kind of the osmosis of somebody who really does it well, who's been doing it for a long time. So stuff like that, I think, you can only get outside of the classroom, and most of these older musicians, they expect you to play at a certain level, and if you kind of could do that, then they were cool and they would hope that you would take in the information that they're sharing through the music and then you grow with them too. Paul was like that. I mean, he didn’t really want to talk so much about the specifics of music, but I was older by that time too, so I had enough experience by that time. But you know, early on playing with somebody like Joe Henderson, where I had just been playing for a few years, the whole thing was a bit more of a mystery. He might say something, but I have no idea what he's talking about because it was kind of cryptic. So, it took…  It took me some time to get to those deeper understandings. But I think that process gave me something that if I’d just gone into school and expected the teacher to show me something, and then to have an understanding of that, I think that shortcut, you lose out on something. 

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AG: I think that segues well to – I said I had two directions I wanted to go with it, and I and I picked one, but I think it brought us back to the other one because, just the idea that you learn what you need to learn by doing the gig, and sometimes you find out the hard way. 

LG: Right. (Laughs) 

AG: Or you don’t even know what it is, you just know, it's not there yet. 

LG: Right. Right. Yeah. There was so much that I learned, so much that I found out through gigs, what I needed to practice. So, for me, a lot of what I've practiced over the years has come from the gigs. Obviously, one thing would be if I didn't know a tune, I would go home and learn that tune, but you know, just more subtle things too that I had problems with on the gig. I just knew that, well, that's kind of hitting me over the head with how clear that is that that's something I have to work on. And I think if you don't have those opportunities, it may not be, you may not be so quick to to get together those kinds of basic things that people expect from your instrument, or what they expect from a musician on stage. So the process goes quicker, I think. 

AG: It sounds like that's still part of the process in its way, like, you were talking about practicing before and some of it’s technique, but also for whatever music you have coming up. So, I don't know, how was learning and growing different now? And how is it the same? 

LG: Yeah, I think  in those ways it's the same, you know, about taking the information or the experiences of gigs and letting that dictate the direction of practicing. That's kind of continued. I mean, physically, for me to play the bass is much easier now than it was, obviously, 30 years ago, but also 10 years ago. So that kind of continues to be, that gets pushed up, like the level gets pushed, which allows me to kind of explore more material and get to it quicker and not be hindered as much by the technical aspects of it. So it opens me up to more music. And then, obviously, we hear our ears continue to grow. So I hear more with the music that I listened to, and that I am exploring to find out what's going on. I might be still listening to a record that I’ve heard since I was a kid, but obviously I hear so much more to that music now. So that that all helps, and the more experiences help, and more confidence builds up that helps. And also, as far as sound, touch on the instrument, that really continues to grow with technique, and your ability to speak, to get the music out of the instrument that you have in your head, that connection becomes more… quicker, more lubricated you know? 

AG: Efficient. 

LG: It passes through quicker and, also, just hearing more music and being inspired by more music and hearing all music as potential influence. That all effects sound, and life experience, having a family, these these things all effects sound,  what we what we try to put through into the music. Those things continue to grow over the years for sure. 

AG: Mmm. Let's see here. Oh, man… I don't even know what I'm talking about in some of these. 

LG: I know that feeling (Laughs) 

AG: I wrote it down and now I don't know what I meant, but um, but that's alright. Okay, well… Moving on. I'm just curious how the Hudson Group came together. 

LG: Right. That came together because… Well, very specifically, we had gotten together to do a benefit concert up here in Woodstock. That exact band played a set of music. I can't remember what it was. It was some benefit concert. So we played this one night. I played with Jack in different situations but I think the first time was with Pat Metheny. We played trio a couple of times. And with John Scofield, I had known him since about 96-97. We've played in different situations. And Medeski, I met him when I moved up here to the Hudson Valley and we just played a couple of gigs around town. But that was the first time we had all played together as a band and it was really fun. Like, with all those guys, the music can go any direction, and it will. It just kind of flows very naturally and there's no no limitations to where it can go. 

So, it was basically Jack's idea. It was going to be his 75th birthday and he was putting together a tour. So we put the band together and we made the record, kind of conceptualized this idea of like, the repertoire is coming from this area, songs associated with bands from this area. And then we went on tour in the states and it just kind of grew out of that. These tunes just became kind of a springboard for any, any and all the music that we love. It can kind of go in and out of many different genres. But it was jazz, in the sense that it was very much like the level of ability and listening was on such a high level that the music could really move. And it did. And it was really fun to perform all that stuff live. And also, those guys, they’re just beautiful musicians, their ears are gigantic. 

AG: I witnessed Scofield’s big ears in the studio when he was recording the album, Quiet.  

LG: Oh, yeah! That's the first tour I did with him, actually. So, that was 96 or 7, right? 

AG: Yeah, something like that.

LG: Yeah. That was when I first met him, actually, because Swallow, who was on the record, couldn't make the tour. So we went out for like a year, on and off. But yeah, I love that record. I love that music. 

AG: My dad plays French horn on that record. So I just went…  

LG: Oh! 

AG: … to hang out. But to watch him in the studio, I think of this now because you just were talking about their big ears and everything. I mean, Sco really knew what was going on with everybody. It was so cool. 

LG: No, I mean, he's just like all these great guys that we're talking about. The ear thing, I mean, I guess that's something maybe I didn’t mention but that's what I realized with these great musicians really early because it was forced on to me was that it's all about listening. And yes, you have to get all the technical things together on your instrument which you do in your in your room at home practicing. But once you get to playing, it's all about your ears and when I realized that with… especially with Joe Henderson, that everything I played was heard. 

AG: That’s it. 

LG: Then it really kind of shook up my whole – the bedrock – you know, because, especially for bass you know, if you're not playing with experienced musicians, you can kind of get away with a lot and nobody notices. But once you start playing with somebody like Joe, then can see everything you play is heard and it effects the music, then you have to get your shit together 

and deal with your limitations. And then the next thing of, yeah, I gotta be listening on that same level and reacting, taking in all this information. That kind of early lesson for me was huge. I've seen it over and over with all these guys, with Jack and John, that it's really all about that, about making music in the moment because you're listening on such a high level. 

AG: I guess that's one of the things, going back to like what people in jazz school should do, you know, I'm thinking they should seek out… be on the scene and see what people are doing, but it makes you, like, you talk about getting your shit together. I mean, it makes you ask questions that…  nobody's telling you what you have to figure out. 

LG: Exactly. And I think this is true of education in general, but it's particular to jazz because it's so not academic at its core. But I think there's a tendency, the way everything's set up, is for students to be lazy in that regard. In that they expect the information be coming to them from the teacher, and if they do this list of things, then they'll be cool by the time they graduate. Obviously, you have to take on a more active role as your own teacher to be an active student. I think I was forced into that situation just because of not being in that environment, being on the bandstand. Either get it together or, sorry, you’re just not gonna have the gig. 

AG: Sink or swim. 

LG: Basically. You know, and I think that's really, as hard as it was at certain points, it was extremely helpful. It also helped this whole thing move faster. I think I got a lot together quicker that way. 

AG: Right. I don't want to move backwards too much, but it does make me think about your going to college and not going to music school. I mean, at this point you must have had… 

I mean, when you went to college, did you intend on pursuing a career in music? 

LG: Absolutely. Yeah. No, I never had a doubt about it. I just kind of…  Actually, I went to Stanford and I did start as a music major. I think in a couple of weeks I switched. They had an interesting music department, but it wasn't really focused in on what I was interested in, and

I didn't participate in it. But I switched my major to English Lit. So I just kind of picked up the next thing that I was interested in and continued that and then continued to do gigs and take lessons and practice. 

AG: So, not to imply that there's anything wrong with it (Laughs) but why did you finish college? 

LG: (Laughs) Well…  maybe a part of it was parental pressure. Part of it was that I just wanted to finish it. I’d gone a few years already and then I was like, ahh, I kind of was itching to get back here. It was hard, but then I didn't want to just leave it hanging. You know, I felt like I put enough time into it – and I enjoyed it too. And there were amazing teachers. I was also able to connect the dots of great writing and great music and there are these relationships. And I was doing enough good gigs at night, so kind of kept that balance of, okay. Yeah, I think all those things. I mean, it was hard. That last year, I kind of just…  struggled to stay on top of it all but I ended up – actually, it actually took me five years. (Laughs) So, you know, I was a little slow. I remember taking one semester off to go on tour, and then I had to take, a common, typical thing, like, I had to take one Spanish class at the end that I had forgotten to take so, you know, it's just like stupid things, but by 1989 I graduated. And in 1990 I moved to Boston. 

AG: Oh, right. Gary Burton? 

LG: Exactly. 

AG: Let's see. So anything, any other plans with the Hudson Group? Is that ongoing? 

LG: I don't know. I would love to because, I mean, or just that group or playing with any of those guys is great. So anytime that comes up, it's fun. But I would, of course, love to play with that particular band more because I think there's so much unexplored stuff that we could – we could have played the whole night, just free, that would have been amazing. Because Medeski is like, at a drop of a hat will go free and, all those guys. I mean Jack is an amazing free drummer. So, I think there’s a lot of music still to be gotten to but, I don't know. All that stuff is always so up in the air because everybody's doing different things, scheduling-wise. 

AG: I was talking to Wallace Roney not long ago, and he was talking about how he's always been influenced by great bands, and this idea of a band and he really likes to have, you know, a core together so that they can evolve. 

LG: Right. 

AG: So it just seems like a wonderful opportunity once you've had that connection to. 

LG: Exactly. I mean, I kind of..  I like both. I like meeting new musicians and having that first encounter, that's really interesting and can be really enjoyable too. But overall, this idea of playing with people over time is so special, and you can grow together, you trust each other, you can fuck up together. The thing that I've had with Brad [Mehldau], for over 20 years, is that of, you know, complete trust, but at the same time, always kind of exploring new territory because of that trust. It's like, it doesn't get old because of that, it gets, it actually gets fresher, because we can continue this, kind of, this journey together and feel comfortable enough where it kind of opens up more doors. So, I’m always thankful for those sort of relationships that continue and continue to grow. It's not, these days it's not that common, you know, so that's, that's definitely one of them. You know, with Jeff Ballard too, I've known him since I was 15. We've played on and off since then. So, these relationships with particularly musicians over decades is something I'm really happy about, it really helps, for me, push the music, because of these things I'm saying, trust and the relationship that has grown over many years. 

AG: And I imagine the relationships continue to grow in various ways, even when you've spent some time apart. When you come back together…  

LG: Right. 

AG: …you're somehow further along. 

LG: Exactly, because we all go off and do different things. And then we come back with that, with that information. It's like an explorer going off (Laughs) in different places, you come back and then you get this whole new… kind of…  language to discuss and you feed off of other people's journeys too. And that's kind of been what's happened with Brad, and with Jorge at first, and with Jeff, but, you know, there's definitely parts of the year that we're not playing together, that we all do different things, and I think those things just kind of build up the core of the information that we that we can feed off of when we do play together. 

G: So I got a copy of your new upcoming album, your solo bass album. I've really been enjoying it, I'm happy to tell you. 

LG: Thank you. I’m glad. 

AG: Yeah, it's great! It's kind of like: solo bass album, uh-oh! 

LG: Right. 

AG: How is it going to stay engaging or make sense? 

LG: Right. 

AG: So how long has this idea been cultivating? 

LG: It really wasn't. It wasn't something I really thought about doing. It came through working with Manfred Eicher on different records together. And after one of them a couple of years back he had mentioned, he had asked me if I'd be interested in doing a solo bass record and the timing was just right, and I felt comfortable with the idea and kind of intrigued by the possibilities. So I agreed to it. And then about a year went by before I recorded it. So it's about a year of kind of conceptualizing it and writing music for it and putting music together, and it was an amazing journey, actually, because it was so… So alone, you know? It was just me and the instrument and trying to, like you say, try to find different sonic potentials for the instruments so that over 45 minutes a listener can hear different elements, different aspects of the bass, sonically. So, it brought me to exploring, obviously, arco playing and pizzicato. But then, you know, different tunings, working with playing more than one note at one time. Just different things that would 

change the way the bass could be heard and change the way that I heard the bass. So it inspired me to write some music and explore that whole side. So, during that year I put some music together and then it was kind of just kind of practicing enough where I could play it, and to feel comfortable with it, and to make it be able to speak the way I wanted to. So, a lot of a lot of practicing involved, a lot of thinking about things, about…  when you're playing by yourself, you break everything down to very essential core elements of what music is, what music means, and what space means. What's the core of the sound. Different ways to get to that sound. It was really a kind of real educational year. And then recording, it was also a trip because that was the first time I'd ever been in the studio, really, by myself, playing alone and not having the natural reactive thing going on with other musicians. So that was kind of off-putting at first but…  you know, it was just the whole thing was really a learning experience. And now I'm gonna do some gigs for it, and that's going to be interesting too, because to be up on stage by yourself is a whole other thing. So, I gotta say, it's been really, the learning curve, it's been really huge and I'm glad I went through it. And I really, even though it's a bass record, I didn't want it just to be cool for bass players, I want to somehow let the music speak in a way that other musicians or even non-musicians can hear and hear what I'm trying to get to. 

AG: Yeah, I mean, I think I think it's working. I mean, it's like, you get to the point where it's just music. 

LG: Right. That’s it. You still have to have variety, right? 

AG: Yeah! 

LG: This is the challenge of playing solo. There’s also the obvious, you know, like, Sonny Rollins playing solo, or, well, piano players, obviously, playing solo, but but, you know, with instruments that are just single note instruments, you know, can't really play chords, you know, it's not vertical harmony, so it's horizontally, the information unfolds, like, saxophone or trumpet. You know, those were influences on me for like, how Sonny would spell out a song, let it unfold over that time period. And then, obviously, the classical influences. Music written for solo instruments was an influence, maybe not so literally, but just hearing how different composers would write for a solo stringed instrument with the options, what they came up with, what solutions they came up with with these kinds of hurdles of letting harmony and melody speak on a single note instrument. 

AG: Yeah, I think I read somewhere you mentioned Hindemith in particular. 

LG: Yeah, that was a record that Manfred had given me early on of Kim Kashkashian playing Hindemith’s solo viola music, which is amazing. I've always loved Hindemith, but that record I didn't know until then. So his music, Benjamin Britten's music for solo cello, or Bach’s music for cello, obviously. So all the things that I had been listening to somehow, I think, seeped into the music. 

AG: And then you went out to Pernes les Fontaine to mix it. I'm curious how that happened, just because it's a small town, and I've been to that studio. It's a great studio. 

LG: Yeah. 

AG: How did that happen? Is that another Manfred idea, or? 

LG: Yeah, that's a studio that he likes to use in Europe, and I had recorded the record with James Farber in New York, but I, just kind of scheduling-wise waiting to mix it and I was doing a record with Wolfgang Muthspiel at that studio. And then, so after that record finished, I mixed it the next day with Manfred and Gérard. 

AG: Oh, cool. That reminds me, so there's two of Wolfgang's, the Bagatelles. 

LG: Right. 

AG: Were those composed recently or they've been around a while? 

LG: So when Manfred asked me to do this record, I was actually doing another record with Wolfgang, the previous one at that studio, La Buissonne. So, he was there and he said, “Man, if you want, I’ll write some pieces for you.” So I said, “Yeah, of course.” So he sent me those. He actually sent me three pieces, short pieces. And they, I really dug ‘em, they were super unique, something that I would not have been able to write myself. But they were super…  I mean, they actually were quite hard, I had to practice them quite a bit. But they were definitely capable to be played on the bass. So, he was very aware of the instrument, what its limitations were, what could be played. So nothing had to really be changed to make it work on the bass. So yeah, he brought those specifically for the date and I was really happy that he did. 

AG: Oh, yeah, it really must have been like, I mean, I don't know how much material you had. But I just.. I don't know, I imagine that was helpful to have this great material to work with. 

LG: Definitely, definitely. It also brings in a different influence of sound like when somebody else hears from the bass. I appreciated that. 

AG: So have you done the solo performance yet? 

LG: Well, not completely, because I've done some, but they've usually been interspersed, like with my wife, Rebecca Martin, who sings, and we've done gigs where it was some solo bass, and then she would sing, we do duo stuff together. And I've done that also with Jeff Ballard, actually. We did that once. But a whole night by myself, I have not done. So actually, this gig in New York will be the first like that. 

AG: March 15, I saw on your site. 

LG: Right. I’ll let you know after this gig in New York if it's something I want to continue, but I think it will be because, once again, it's something that puts it pushes me, you know, really pushes my ability to speak on the instrument, you know, and then also to develop the music that's on the record, to develop it live, but also to come up with new material that I think is appropriate. I'm trying to keep this to be something that I continue to explore. So just trying to find those moments when I can put it in the schedule. 

AG: So I guess you'll find out as you go, I mean, who knows what you're going to find out? 

LG: Exactly. It's really a journey to see, you know, see what it feels like to be on stage by myself after, you know, I mean, really being in the studio by yourself. It's really shocking. Like, that was something I hadn't really thought about before going in, like what that…  I mean, I've done it in the sense of like going into overdub on somebody's record, but that’s usually one tune or something, but to be in the studio for a day or two by yourself and just having the bass coming right back at you…  Really, it's a whole other thing. 

AG: Yeah, I guess you wouldn't have thought of it, you get there and you realize you don't have this other feedback? 

LG: Right. (Laughs) Yeah, I didn't think it was gonna be quite as lonely as it ended up being in the studio. But not a bad loneliness. 

AG: Alright. Just one more question, which may be sort of selfish because I don't know if it actually has a place in that article. But I think it's, it may be a question about bass strings or something. It's just having listened to a lot of records, there’s sort of the heyday when they started making a lot of records in the 50s, and I think the bow is something that jazz bassists have wrestled with so much and, on some of those records, without giving a specific example, it's like the bass solo comes on, and they're gonna play it with a bow and sometimes (Laughs) I wish that's not what was on the record. 

LG: (Laughs) 

AG: And it could be a great bass player. I'm sure you can, you know, you've heard it. 

LG: Yeah. No, I know what you’re talking about. 

AG: So, I mean, what's that about? Is that like, because it all used to be gut strings, and people didn't use to deal with the bow as much or? 

LG: Well, yeah, I think it's a combination of things. Yeah. Yeah, playing gut strings with the bow is problematic. I mean, nowadays, even gut strings are made differently now, for sure. But there are some amazing classical players who play gut strings and it sounds beautiful. I mean, sounds different than metal strings. It’s another thing. It can be done, but it's not easy. And it takes a certain technique, for sure. And I think most of the jazz bass players who would, back then, who were playing on gut strings would sometimes solo with the bow, they were just kind of dealing, that wasn't necessarily what they were focusing their practicing on. And then, you know, pretty early, like, Richard Davis is a good example. I think he might have gone to metal strings pretty early compared to some others. And he had an amazing sound with a bow. Crazy. So, there definitely were exceptions. I mean, I don't mind scratchiness, sometimes, it can be too much sometimes. But you know, for me, Paul Chambers and Slam Stewart. I mean, I love what they came to. But, for me, it was, I experimented a lot with strings with the bow. And I ended up, on this record, using a different bass with different strings. Because it just made it easier, I could get a certain sound that I wouldn't have been able to have done if I had had it set up as if I was playing jazz. So I had that luxury of having two instruments and using strings that are really made for the bow that grabbed the bow. So that was… I didn’t cheat, but it definitely made it easier than trying to play, because I do use gut strings when I play jazz, on some of the strings. To play the bow with those strings would have been, it would have been tricky and it would also not have been the sound that I was looking for. 

AG: Actually, I noticed that was another one of my notes. I wondered if you were using different instruments for different pieces on the album. 

LG: Yeah, just in that way. You know, on the arco stuff, I use one bass, on the pizzicato stuff I use different things. 

AG: So when you do your solo performances, I imagine you'll bring one bass. 

LG: Well, this is the issue I’m kind of dealing with. I was, you know, the couple of times, like I'm telling you, I've done it, some of the night, solo. I brought two basses, actually. But I think I'm not going to do that in New York. I kind of have to find a compromise string wise, find strings, which I think I know, but I have to work it all out, but that will sound to my ear, adequate for jazz and are able to be bowed well. It's not so easy. That's kind of always been an issue for me and for other bass players, to find strings that work well for both. 

AG: Right. I guess that's…  yeah, I don't know what happened on some of those records I'm thinking about. 

LG: (Laughs) 

AG: It's not always the scratchiness either. Sometimes it's even intonation, but… 

LG: Sure. Well, that’s the other thing, with a bow your intonation becomes really apparent. If it's not something you're practicing every day or almost every day, then it's gonna show some weakness, you know, and it really, it's, it's a whole other ballgame. So you really, the time has to be put in otherwise those little things will really be shown. 

AG: Well, I guess as long as you figure it out  (Laughs)  it's a nice problem to play with. 

LG: Right. It is. Because a whole other sound is available, and the big thing is that you can hold notes long, which you can’t do pizzicato. So, it's great.